2009
by Peter LaMotte
Community,
As promised I wanted to respond to one community member's posting on all active RFBs this past Tuesday. In fairness to user Steresa2001 I want to first post their comment, and then explain why we deleted this particular post.
On April, 21st at approximately 10am EST user Steresa2001 post the following comment on seven different graphic design and video RFBs.
“Hey everyone. Don't you think you are selling your self out? You are all offering your skills for free in the hopes of being selected the winning designer. If you are lucky enough to be selected, then you get paid. But what about all those hours of putting into the design and what if you don't even get selected as the winner? Do you work for free? I think this web site is destroying the freelance business.”
We decided that after multiple clients contacted us to remove the posts we needed to pull Steresa2001's comment. We did this for multiple reasons, first we want to make sure that we leave the discussion boards for the sole purpose of communicating with the client. Second, we know that this particular topic is one that often solicits a great deal of passion, and back and forth. We didn't want the conversation to take place across multiple boards.
We encourage the discussion, and totally respect Steresa2001's opinion. We feel that we are providing a service to our creative artists, but we also understand that not everyone chooses to participate in this process. I would welcome any discussion around this topic on this blog. I would also be happy to speak with anyone personally about our business model and some of our plans to make GeniusRocket an ever better place.
Peter is an industry expert at GeniusRocket, focused on the dynamics of online media and community driven content. As EVP of Marketing and Operations he oversees day-to-day activities of the company.
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Comments (130) | Post a comment
It's everyone's own decision to participate or not. Certainly every designer tries to shine and give his best work in a competition, but as a designer you're doing something wrong if you're putting too much time or effort in it on the remote chance that you hit a client's taste.
That's just the thing, and a point that geniusrocket could really improve on: Most of the RFBs come down to guesswork and there's very little feedback. As you put it, one of the biggest advantages of using geniusrocket for a customer is that they're given a helping hand throughout every stage of the design process. That should extend to the comments and feedback, and clients should be encouraged to work more actively with designers. After all it's their money and they should be interested giving their opinion early on, steering the designs into a direction they like until they get the result they were hoping for - or an even better one by surprise.
I'd wish for a better rating system, one that allows more nuanced feedback on whether a design hits the point or misses it. As I've seen it the star system is rarely ever used, and even then it's too crude to be an effective direction. Also, client feedback in the comment section could be way more frequent. I just see it as an expression of mutual respect: A designer spends time and effort to come up with a suggestion, and a client should be able to take a few seconds and rate new designs. If not every day, then at the very least once a week, perhaps aided by geniusrocket staff. Some clients do give feedback, but most seem to show little interest in a productive dialog.
Yeah, I know... we're all short on time. Still, I think those are essential points that need to be addressed in order to improve geniusrocket. Facilitating dialog, providing a better rating system, encouraging and helping clients with their feedback... that would really help to turn geniusrocket into a better experience for everyone.
My 2 cents :o)
Theschnuffel, while I agree with much of what you say, your comment doesn't address Steresa2001's main point.
There is no question that if Genius Rocket and other sites like it succeed, they will put a major dent in the freelance business. That is what it is designed to do. It was created with the clients in mind. Clients who stand to save thousands and perhaps millions that freelancers and agencies would have billed in the "old days".
That being said, it is of course each individual's own decision to participate or not. And there will always be plenty of creatives willing to do so, for many various reasons.
Ideally, this is something that an employed writer or designer could do on the side, time permitting. But taken to the extreme, i.e., if this concept really, really takes off, there will be many less creatives employed; and we'll all be fighting to win a few bucks from giant corporations who used to provide us all with a decent living!
We'll see what happens.
I neglected to mention one other important distinction: there is a huge difference between a copywriter's time commitment and a designer's time comittment to projects posted on Genius Rocket.
The reality is, copywriting is much less labor and time intensive than designing. Most writers can pump out a few extra ideas during the course of a busy workday; it's not that simple for designers, as I'm sure many of you understand. I'm a copywriter, and my participation in a Genius Rocket assignment is easily addressed during the course of an average workday at my full-time job.
Clients will save money and Genius Rocket will make money on the backs of hundreds, if not thousands, of creatives working for free. Without many submissions to choose from, the model doesn't make sense.
Again, in the end participation comes down to a personal decision; and creatives who buy into the warm and fuzzy idea that this a creative endeavor devoted to the creative community are deeply mistaking. This is about the clients.
But advertising is just one of many industries that will be seeing many changes over the next decade.
theschnuffel, Thank you for the feedback. Recently we have made a point to the client that, just as you stated, the more feedback they give the better the final product will be. We are constantly trying to find ways to improve the technology to help with communications and provide clients direction so that they give more feedback to you the artist.
Frank, thank you for the feedback as well. While I totally respect your opinion, I would disagree that that the only purpose of this company is to benefit the client. We believe that GR does give artists opportunities that they may not otherwise have. I will select just one example; Pepsi coming to the GeniusRocket community to source potentially viral video concepts is something that very few artists would normally have the opportunity to participate in. I personally believe that this holds true to logos, video, website design, and copy as well. Yes, its true Pepsi saved money because they could have gone to an Ad Agency and paid 10s of thousands of dollars to one firm for the same thing, but in paying $5000 to 5 artists they received a quality product and that money was given to five artists that would have never been part of the process.
Frank: Actually, I did address steresa2001's comment as much as I thought was needed. But I'll elaborate a bit.
I doubt that geniusrocket or other crowdsourcing sites are taking up much of the freelancer market, certainly not in the long run. Sure, it's an attractive offer for clients as they're given a lot of choices for little money. But look at the average quality of logo submissions, for example. Not to put anybody's work down, but a lot of it is outright unusable, and a real advertising agency would be ashamed to show stuff like that to a client. Anyone can call themselves a designer and upload a submission, and clients need to weed through it all.
Now, while GR seems to help clients as much as they can, they cannot provide the same level of advice and counsel that a traditional ad agency or a professional freelancer can give to a client. Being led through the entire process of having a logo designed, selecting a proper CI etc., being actively involved, and having all the bells and whistles taken care of... that's something that GR simply cannot offer. And I'm willing to bet the majority of clients know that and prefer direct contact and somewhat of a quality guarantee, while more adventurous clients or those on a really tight budget might turn to GR. The latter wouldn't be able to pay for traditional quality work, anyway. There's a place for everything and everyone.
It's attractive for designers as well, up to a point. The GR concept is nice if you want to train your design skills, compete with fellow designers, possibly generate a little money on the side, or at the very least create some works for your own portfolio. For some it might also be first contact with a future client, the starting point of a longer business relationship. I think that's an exception, though. If you take GR as a portal to acquire clients or make serious money, you're doing something wrong anyway. That's what I meant when I said you shouldn't put in too much time or more effort than it's worth. I'm sure that experienced designers will agree, and participate on GR only infrequently (if at all) and mostly for fun. The market regulates itself, and clients get what they pay for.
That's why I see GR as a nice opportunity instead of a threat, and I have a bit more relaxed view of steresa2001's concerns.
I think that taking down Steresa2001's post is somewhat wrong, as he has a valid point he wanted to make.
Perhaps GeniusRockt should incorporate a discussion forum so creatives could air their dirty laundry, make snide comments about others' work, ask questions on how to better present their ideas... oh, and maybe give accolades to work they see here and there when warranted ;o)
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@mikeyc, I understand your point. The reason we took down the post was more to be helpful to the artist who are working on the project. If the goal of the post of the just to question the value of crowdsourcing creative work, then the client RFB's discussion board isn't the place. You are right that we need to set up an open discussion forum, and we hope to launch that soon.
This comment was moved to this blog due to it being more appropriate for this venue and discussion.
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John Braiman on June 5th, 2009 Stated on the Evan's Bakery Blog.
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Who said anything about being forced?
Folks, you're missing the whole point. The real problem is you undervalue yourselves by participating in spec work. If this were truly a forum for creative types then both the value of the work and the clients need to get quality work would be better served through the RFP process.
This is not the only place this kind of approach is catching on and it damages the industry as a whole by commoditizing talent. History always ends up repeating. Instead of the web having the potential to disintermediate, it's just created another generation of middlemen. After all, 90% of humanity is middleman, and they don't like being cut out.
I am new to Genius Rocket but I have enjoyed my experience thus far. Maybe I got lucky with the client, but I had several questions and wanted to bounce a couple concepts/ideas off the client before actually shooting the video. I simply stated this in the discussion forum and had a couple back and forth emails with valuable feedback facilitated by Genius Rocket staff. Also, this is a chance for me to dip my toes into the creative waters of this industry, so to say, as I have not gone to school for this or made a profession of it, yet I have a passion for creating. I like what you're doing Genius Rocket, keep up the good work.
Thanks Will, we realize that GeniusRocket is choice. While we continue to provide opportunities for artist, we know that many choose not to participate. We appreciate your support and participation.
Until a discussion board launches, non-RFB related content will continue to be posted here. We are not trying to prevent conversation we just need to provide a place for creatives to talk to clients about specific RFBs.
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Stams on June 6th, 2009 says:
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Ridiculous rates, I just joined to post this.. it is downright insulting, I am working on similar projects that pay the actual rate, approximately 10 times more than this "award" they offer.
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Creative artists do not ever work for "awards" or on spec terms.
Having used genius rocket on a few occasions to give my brain a creative " fix " I realize that we all make the conscience decision to put time and effort into projects that might not pay off, usually they won't. I do however think that the concept of genius rocket is a good one, it will never ever ever replace the kind of work a client would get if they were working with an individual designer or creative team. Just look at some of the clients selections. No offense to anyone, but in my opinion the final product , mostly on the logo rfbs have been okay, that's it, nothing great. The wooden ships logo is a perfect example and the wom slam rfb. Working with a design agency or frellance designer will yeild greater work. Genius Rocket is a great place for us designers to get the lead out so to speak and if a client likes your work then great. I do not think that this forum will ever replace the client designer relationship. Businesses want a cheap alternative and sometimes the clients cheapness reflects the logos they pick. Dont need to be negative, i like this site and use it for my own needs. cya.
I dont mean to be negative at all, just my opinion....congrats to all winners of rfb's. As a designer it is my job to critique others work....
I can also understand Steresa2001's comment. There are many companies out there that go through contests for their design needs which may stunt some freelancing or hanker design houses but it is a good way to get a foot out there. I've used several different contest websites and I believe it has made some of my design work better. Competition and ideas I see from designers all around the world fuel new projects and I don't see a problem with that. Plus if a company likes a particular winner's style or even someone they had in mind but didn't pick, they may build a relationship with one of these designers that may have never crossed their attention otherwise. I think sites like this are a great way to get acquainted with the industry and the people that build and create within it.
Dear Clients, please respect the rules
Before the designers are able to submit their artwork, they have to accept the conditions made by Genius Rocket.
But we witness again and again how clients don't respect the time limit for picking a winner. If the clients don't respect the deadline for making a choice, they should pay double to the winner design.
If the designers have two week to make an artwork, and the client have two weeks to pick a winner, the client in reality have four weeks to make a choice. The client can follow the submissions every day, and are able to make a choice from day to day while the contest go on. Four weeks are much to long, and should be shorten to a few days only, after the contest have finished. Thank you.
Dear Steresa2001 and other Artists,
I'm a (rookie) client of GeniusRocket and has used your service and has been impressed with your creative talent.
I empathize with you about your concern and want to share my thoughts on the service that GeniusRocket provides us - both clients and artists.
At first it might seem that many artists spend their time on one project and only one will get paid in the end. So, the others time is a waste? or not?
For one second, please consider my recent case. I wanted some design work to be done. I had two options:
1. Find an artist (through references using my friends network) and get a quote
2. Use GeniusRocket
Say, I used option 1. In this case, I would have had one designer pitch his/her thoughts and i would have worked to improve it to fit my needs. Now, say I liked the design idea and then refer this artist to my friends. Only this artist gets the work (until he/she is full time and after that would have to refer to others). Further, there is no garuantee that my friends would be impressed by this artist as I was. So, my friends would have to look else where for their projects.
I used option 2. In this case, I found many great ideas but ofcourse, I selected one winner. This experience left me with a great feeling about your creative talent since I have seen it first hand and so, i would highly recommend your service to all my friends. They would have a similar experience as mine although the artist who impressed me with his/her idea would not impress my friends, there would be other great artists at GeniusRocket who would. As a result, my friends would recommend to their friends. This would bring in more work to all of you as a group and different artists would win different projects.
Needless to say, I used option2 and have been your evangelist telling my friends ands others about your work with the truel hope that you will find more work - As an young entreprenuer, I understand how hard it is to find clients, let alone good clients.
I personally see GeniusRocket as a matchmaking site - where business and other folks looking for design/creative work and artists will be matched. Once you make few good matches, you have established a longterm relationship and wouldn't be using GeniusRocket to find regular work but you might use to fill gaps and slow times. (To people at GeniusRocket, I don't mean to say that we are leaving you. LOL)
Good luck to all of you and looking forward to working with most of you in future.
Sincerely,
A Raving Fan.
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ДА! побольше бы таких блогов полезных…. только жалко изображения пропали:(
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странно как-то получается всё это, сколько людей, столько мнений
прочитал всё это и задумался над смыслом жизни. неужели так бывает?
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понравился блог, материал подобран по тематике, молодец автор.
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The Vital Indoor Soccer Union's Milwaukee Breaker announced brain tumor Wednesday onward MarcoTerminesi has been placed on their injured keep chronicle as he undergoes an assessmentbrain tumor in his tranquil woods of Canada seeking a on brain brain tumor.
http://www.anshibo.org
Логотип мне нравится:)
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The Vital Indoor Soccer Union's Milwaukee Ripple announced brain tumor Wednesday presumptuous MarcoTerminesi has been placed on their injured keep record as he undergoes an assessmentbrain tumor in his accommodations hinterlands of Canada for a possible intellectual brain tumor.
http://www.anshibo.org
The Vital Indoor Soccer Society's Milwaukee Ripple announced brain tumor Wednesday onward MarcoTerminesi has been placed on their injured reserve liber veritatis as he undergoes an researchbrain tumor in his harshly woods of Canada repayment for a possible intellectual brain tumor.
http://www.anshibo.org
The Larger Indoor Soccer Union's Milwaukee Ripple announced brain tumor Wednesday forward MarcoTerminesi has been placed on their injured hoard chronicle as he undergoes an testbrain tumor in his tranquil hinterlands of Canada repayment for a workable acumen brain tumor.
http://www.anshibo.org
The Vital Indoor Soccer Conspiring with's Milwaukee Wavelet announced brain tumor Wednesday forward MarcoTerminesi has been placed on their injured hoard list as he undergoes an testbrain tumor in his home mother country of Canada seeking a plausible perceptiveness brain tumor.
http://www.anshibo.org
Это удачно я зашёл на Ваш блог. Добавил в букмарки. Пожелание-тему поменять на более приятную..щас же 21 век на дворе :) Удачи в развитии блога.
The response level to national disaster is awesome but it's a real shame that so many citizens take advantage of the negative situations.
I mean everytime there is an earthquake, a flood, an oil spill - there's always a group of heartless people who rip off tax payers.
This is in response to reading that 4 of Oprah Winfreys "angels" got busted ripping off the system. Shame on them!
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/19/crimesider/entry5251471.shtml
Вот огромное человческое спасибо вам за этот блог. Кроме этого поста нашёл ещё кучу интересного для себя. Теперь буду заходить сюда постоянно..Я Ваш читатель :)
Хороший пост. Чувствуется ведёте блог с душой, хотя сейчас повально все увлекаются заведением блога, в твитере акка..но по делу, грамотно и интересно мало у кого получается писать, а главное постоянно. Так же всех наших дорогих и горячо любимых дам с 8 марта!!!
Понравился Ваш сайт! В рунете вообще мало чего дельного в блогах пишут. Всё стараются друг у друга скопировать посты. Года 2 назад было интересно ходить по разным блогам-видно было сразу-люди старались писать посты..а щас уже только для яндекса и стараются. Вообщем желаю продолжать Вам в Том же духе.
С уважением Ваш читатель.