GeniusRocket Responds to Creator Feedback
Aug.
16th
2009
by GeniusRocket
Dear community,
Over the last week I have been dealing with a former member of the Geniusrocket creative community on a situation that has now led to this particular artist spamming our website, contacting our clients, and creating and anti-GeniusRocket site. The last thing I want this blog entry to become is a “he said, she said” situation so as you can see at the bottom of this entry is a transcript of the e-mail between the artist, Fred (of GR), and myself.
To start, I'm going to give you background on this particular artist. Ben Powell, is an incredibly talented filmmaker from New York who much to our pleasure decided to participate in the SXSW RFB earlier this year. Unfortunately, the client decided not to select his work. Yet, in seeing the quality of Ben’s work, and with his permission, we selected his video for use in our second creative profile blog. In that blog we specifically promoted his work and his website on our site. In mid-July we updated our front page and included Ben’s work, among others, in a short video reel called "Creator Showcase". As the title implies, we wanted to showcase the work of some of our most talented members. Until it was removed, the video ran for only three weeks. Early last week a member of the GR team received an e-mail from Ben (seen below), requesting financial compensation for his work on our site.
Feel free to read the back and forth for yourself however I will summarize the GeniusRocket position that we stated to Ben in multiple e-mails.
First, we conceded that we should have added a postroll to the video giving credit to the specific artists whose work was featured and that we would rectify that immediately. We also told Ben that we would also write a blog to apologize for the oversight and give individualized credit to each of the artists that appeared in the video. We are also looking into ways of dealing with the legal text to make it clearer for everyone as to what creatives are agreeing to. As you can read below, we pointed out that in the creative agreement all artists sign before they join our site, Geniusrocket asks permission to use any submission, selected or otherwise, for promotional purposes. This was the means in which we promoted Ben’s video on our creative profile blog. Our goal in each communication with Ben was to make right by him.
Ben was not satisfied with the offer and continued to demand financial compensation, so Fred escalated the e-mails to me, at which point I began communicating with Ben directly. Once again, I apologized for the situation and assured him that while we could not compensate every artist whose work was used in our marketing material, we would find a way that would satisfy him by promoting his, and everyone's, work that was used in the video. We also offered that we would remove his work from the promotional video if he so asked. I also gave him my direct phone line so that we could talk and try and figure out an amicable resolution.
As you can see Ben’s frustration with me and Geniusrocket’s offers grew with every e-mail, ending with him demanding that we remove his work from our site. We agreed and not only removed his work but also the entire video as well. As of writing this blog Ben has created this website and has repeatedly posted comments in active RFB discussions that we deleted because they were unrelated to the RFBs.
The reason for this blog entry is to do two things; first, let you, the community, know the situation. In providing the transcript below our goal is to give complete transparency to both sides of the discussion. Secondly, it’s to assure you the creative community that while we will make mistakes along the way we will try in every way possible to make up for those mistakes and create a community that not only benefits the client paying the award but also you the creative artists. While we do reserve the right to use an artist’s submission to promote the website, we believe that any additional business that is generated from our marketing efforts will in the end benefit you the creator. Over the course of the last year we have paid out to the GeniusRocket community almost $250,000. In every situation dealing with clients we try to defer to the interests of the creative artist over the client because without you, our creative community, there is no Geniusrocket. We are constantly trying to improve the site and provide more benefit to the community. We are constantly working on improving communication and our interface, and increasing financial awards as well as financial benefits beyond the site. Our goals is to offer a site that gives something back to every creator who submits, whether that be financial reward, education, promotion, or networking.
While we regret the loss of such a talented member of our community, I welcome any and all feedback on this situation and offer to you, just as I do to Ben, my phone number if you ever choose to contact me directly.
301-760-3514
Thank you, Peter
CLICK HERE to see the email chain between Ben and the GR Team (expands below)
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Ben Powell wrote:
Hey Fred,
Not sure if you're still with genius rocket. I had a question for you. My animation was included in a demo reel on the genius rocket home page. I wanted to check in regarding compensation for that. I'm sure you don't have any pull on this, but if you can forward this to someone who can address this or give me their email that would be great.
thanks, Ben
On Aug 13, 2009, at 1:10 AM, Fred wrote:
Hey Ben,
I am actually just handling my blog posts from my home (in massachusetts) and have no real pull. But I'll tell you what I know.
Technically any stuff produced for their site can be used for their own promotion.
However when I put the demo reel together the plan was to have credits for each artist featured. (So it would also serve to further publicize each artist)
I ended up leaving DC before it was finished and they just put it up as you see it. I'm glad you contacted me though. I forwarded your email to Peter and then we talked on the phone.
It seems that they're going replace that video on the main page fairly soon. However, he seemed to agree that in the meanwhile, a link to a credit page which directly associated the artist with their respective clip should be implemented.
How does that sound? If you still wouldn't want to be featured (Credited or not) let me know. And I'll tell them to find another clip.
Thanks for contacting me, I'm really sorry this hasn't been addressed yet.
-Fred
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Ben wrote:
Fred, You hit on the major issue right there. No credit was given so the video purely promotes Genius Rocket which is great for Genius Rocket and completely unfair to those of us who have received no compensation for our hard work. Adding credits now really doesn't fix anything. It's sad that I should have to bring this up in order for credits to be added.
A list of credits should have been included, but it wasn't. Therefore I deserve some compensation for use of my video to promote genius rocket, since you weren't promoting me. You were purely promoting Genius Rocket. Genius Rocket is a for profit company and it seems perfectly fair to pay people for their work.
I'm not taking this out on you personally because obviously you aren't even there anymore. It would be good if you could forward this to peter or someone who can address this. Because to be honest I think it's pretty shady.
thanks, Ben
On Aug 13, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Fred Soligan wrote:
Ben,
I completely agree with you that credits should have been included. However, GeniusRocket was acting entirely within their rights not to.
And it sucks that someone would have to bring it up to have it addressed but how they proceed from here could hopefully be towards something positive. (credits which publicize the featured artist)
It is not the intention to take advantage of anyone, and if you'd like your clip removed they'd be happy to oblige.
Also I've copied Peter on this email so you can contact him with any further questions.
All the best,
-Fred
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Ben wrote:
Fred,
"GeniusRocket was acting entirely within their rights not to." That's what I expect to hear from a lawyer. Not from a company who depends upon the community for their entire business model. Of course it's within their legal rights. That doesn't change the fact that it was the complete wrong thing to do. Which is pretty obvious.
"It is not the intention to take advantage of anyone" It doesn't matter what the intention was, you took advantage of everyone's work by using a legal loop hole to use our work to promote GeniusRocket as if GeniusRocket paid us for our work. As if GeniusRocket had created all of this work. That is not right, plain and simple, regardless of intention. The only way it is right is if we were all paid for our work, which we were not.
What if one of your clients took a video that they didn't award any money to and started using it to promote their product? I'm sure there's a legal loop hole that protects them and you, but does that make it right? If someone complains about not being paid for their work which is now being used by the client to market their service do you point to the contract and brush them aside?
There are lots of crowd sourcing sites out there. The only asset you have is your reputation and I can't say you have much left.
On a side note I think it's really lame that they are having you deal with this as someone who was an intern and is no longer there. Maybe you made the video, but I doubt it was your idea not to give anyone any credit. But I guess they could care less about me and my quibbling with their legal policies that I already agreed to.
If I have a problem with my cell phone company they'll point to the contract. It's kind of jaw dropping to see a company that depends on the contributions of the community to do the same. Especially when they have done something that we can all agree was completely wrong.
Everyone in that video needs to be paid for their work.
On Aug 13, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Peter LaMotte wrote: Ben,
I wanted to step in here for Fred. Clearly you are disappointed with the action we have taken. So let me address your points one by one, starting with your last point first.
Fred does in fact work for GeniusRocket, and in my opinion is one of the best parts of GeniusRocket. Don't let the title of "intern" fool you, he is as much a member of the team (paid as well) as myself and the CEO. In fact the reason we asked Fred to work with us while he still attends Art school is to keep us in check when stray from our goal as a company. Which leads me to my next point.
While Fred is correct that the creative agreement all artists sign when they become a member of the GeniusRocket community allows any submissions to be used to promote the site, the more important point is that there was no evil or profit-grubbing intent in our actions. For the same reason that we dedicated a blog to your work, its the same reason that we put it in our demo reel. We think its awesome work. It is to show our clients and other community members how talented you and the other members are. We believe that by showing your level of work, regardless if the client selected it, more clients would use are service which in the end would hopefully give you more opportunities to make money. Our goal as a company is to connect clients with very talented artists, and that has been the case with the vast majority of our selected artists. They continue to work with the company that selects their submission. So yes, while the "creative showcase's" goal is to generate more business for GeniusRocket, we see that business as a good thing for the community and not a bad thing. If we ever felt at any point we were taking advantage of our community, we would have never asked Fred to create the video.
Finally and possibly the most important point to me, is that you mentioned that you felt you were being "brushed aside" and I want to make it perfectly clear that I have no intention of brushing aside any member of the community. I whole heartily believe that you are correct about our company, and any company for that matter, in which we live and die by our reputation. My reason for asking Fred to continue talking to you, rather than me, was so that not only did you NOT feel "brushed aside" and that you knew it wasn't "some executive" but rather someone on our team that understood better than anyone where your interests are. He was simply escalating this past email so that I could get involved. Please know that since I first joined this company I have made every possible effort to do right by the creative community and make sure that our actions reflected that. That is why I am trying to convey my deepest apology about this situation, because our biggest focus right now is to do right by you as a member of our community. However we are honestly not financially able to compensate you for this work being shown in our creative showcase video or on the blog for that matter either. However, I am now asking you in return, how can we do right by you? Knowing that we are not able to financially reward you for this work, is there any way what so ever, that we can adjust your current perception of our company. I know Fred has told you that I will write a public apology where I give all credit to the creators whose work is in the showcase, I am also willing to go back and edit the video if you would like your work removed from the showcase. We also want to add the credits to the video. This was simply a case of having forgotten to go back and reedit the file after Fred left. Just know that we do not want to have you walk away from community, we think you are one the best video artists we have, but you need to help me understand how I can fix this situation.
Here is my office line, please feel free to call me at any point I am usually in the office by 9am EST, and there till about 9pm. I would love to talk to you directly about this issue and see how we can fix this problem. If you prefer I would be happy to call you at any point that is convenient to you, and if you prefer to continue working with Fred I can conference him in. My direct line: 301-760-3514
Thank you for listening, and I hope we can find a way to resolve this issue. Peter
On Aug 15, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Ben wrote:
Peter,
That's pretty much the response I expected, which is unfortunate. You want to try to spin every angle that you can think of rather than provide any legitimate reason why I shouldn't be compensated when you are using my work to build your brand and make money.
the more important point is that there was no evil or profit-grubbing intent in our actions. There's nothing wrong with making a profit. My guess is that your compensation is tied directly to the success of GeniusRocket. The more new clients and deals you bring in the better your compensation package looks. That's the way it should be. You have investors, they expect the business to grow.
In order for your company to grow you have to market your services. You are using my video to market your services and bring in new clients. Not only did you use a clip from my video you are using a still from my video as the thumbnail image for the video so before people even hit play they see my work. Every potential client who visits your site sees my work as an upfront example of why they should give you their money. I have every right to be paid for helping you convince potential clients to pay for your service.
That's pretty much how it works. If I help you make money you pay me for that help. It's a pretty simple concept that hasn't changed since the invention of the whole concept of money. I don't care if you're a part of the "web 2.0 economy", basic ethics still apply.
However we are honestly not financially able to compensate you for this work being shown in our creative showcase video or on the blog for that matter either You can plead poverty, but give me a break Peter you are the Executive Vice President of Marketing & Operations, my guess is that you have a marketing budget. That marketing budget goes toward bringing in new clients. You used my video to help you bring in new clients, you can pay me for my hard work.
The blog is a completely different situation because I was asked for my permission and more importantly given credit for my work. The blog also isn't on your homepage. Nor does it attempt to market directly to new clients. I have never asked to be compensated for the blog.
GeniusRocket functions on the concept that if the client deems your work good enough to market their service they will pay you for the use of that work. By your own rules i deserve compensation for the simple fact that you deemed it good enough to use in building your business. You used my work without my permission and without giving me credit or compensation. Now you want to change the rules because you have a contract with some fine print that lets you do whatever you want with my work. That's pretty sad.
We believe that by showing your level of work, regardless if the client selected it, more clients would use are service which in the end would hopefully give you more opportunities to make money.
Again Peter you're trying to spin me. The more clients who use your service, the more money that YOU make. You are guaranteed to make money from every client who uses your service. You used my work to bring in new clients. I don't care if I have more opportunities if you're using my work to make money without compensating me. It's insulting that you would even try to spin this as an explanation for your actions.
I understand perfectly why you didn't include credits in the video. If you include credits for the people responsible for the work you are no longer promoting GeniusRocket and building the brand. You are then promoting the people who did the work, which doesn't help GeniusRocket. I have a hard time believing that the lack of credits was by accident.
This whole situation is immensely disrespectful. You can continue on with spin, and empty words. Or you can show that you respect my work and my contribution to helping you build your business by compensating me for my hard work. Hard work that you have exploited.
I get the message loud and clear. You don't value my work enough to pay me for the use of it. Especially if that use involves marketing your business and attracting new clients. Why would anyone contribute to your community if you don't value their work?
You can put together a whole new slew of empty words and spin, but it still won't change the basic problem. You're still making money by using my work without compensating me. If that isn't evil I don't know what is.
On Aug 15, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Peter wrote:
Ben,
Once again, I really appreciate your time in writing me back.
That said, I am saddened that you took my words as spin and lies, I spent a great deal of time to write to you in a way that was attempting to convey just the opposite, of how much we respect you and your work but clearly I missed the mark. I think there are a lot of assumptions you have made about GeniusRocket related to budget, title, compensation, and intention that couldn't be further from the truth, but I was hoping that you would have called and I could have explained that to you thorough each point. I think email tends to make conversations seem less genuine and I do believe we could have figured something out over the phone.
For reasons I can't understand you believe that because we can't afford to compensate the non-selected artist whose work is shown on our site, that I am trying to lie to you and take advantage of you. While Fred is the only one of the team that knows video editing software, it is I that should have realized the credits were not included and the disservice we were doing to our creatives by not having the credits in there before it was posted. I take totally responsibility for that mistake. I also totally understand your desire for compensation, however I don't seem to believe you are willing to consider anything other compensation other than GR cutting you a check. If I am wrong on this assumption, please feel free to correct me.
In the meantime, I will ask Fred to edit your work out of the showcase. I am sorry that we have to do that, I truly feel that its some of the best work not only from the SXSW RFB but on our site. I think you are incredibly talented and in looking over your site such as the work you did on the Hunley, I think you would have made a great asset to our community going forward. I will also ask that Fred add credits onto the reel and I will still write the blog to thank the artist and apologize for the oversight.
I am sure you won't believe me, but I my interest is equally in the success of our creative community just as much as it is in the company because we are nothing without our community. I am sorry that this mistake has made you think otherwise.
With the utmost respect, Peter
On Aug 15, 2009, at 11:55 PM, Ben wrote:
Peter,
There isn't much to misinterpret. This conversation is really pretty simple. You are exploiting my work to attract new clients without compensating me for it. It's that simple. No amount of sincerity on your part can change that fact. Talking on the phone, meeting in person none of that changes that fact.
The only reason I deserve to be paid for the use of my work is because you are using it to attract new clients and make money. One of the few things we agree on is that I deserve compensation. I want to be paid for my work because you are using it right now to build your business. Why wouldn't I expect to be paid in that situation? That's what everyone in that video deserves.
This has nothing to do with "compensating the non-selected artist" SXSW isn't using my work to make money without compensating me, you are. Another lame attempt to "lawyer" your way out of this.
Peter you aren't "trying" to take advantage of me, you ARE taking advantage of me. Right now my work is the first thing people see on your homepage as an example of why they should give you their money. Do your clients know that you never paid me to use that work? Explain to me what's acceptable about that?
If 100 people off the street heard this story who would they side with?
You know when this started I would've been happy with $20. It wasn't really that big of a deal. But the longer this has gone on the more I've realized how fundamentally wrong this is. I'm not usually someone to get involved in something like this. If my vacuum breaks I don't write negative reviews on a website or post to a forum. I buy another vacuum. In this case though, you're messing with my livelihood. I want as many people as possible to know about this so they will stay as far away from GeniusRocket as possible. I would hate to see anyone else end up in a situation where you can take advantage of their hard work for your own gain. Also can you send me a copy of the contract so I can have an intellectual property attorney look at it?
It should go without saying, but I want nothing to do with your site. Take down my work, remove the blog post.
On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Peter wrote:
Ben,
I hear you loud and clear. Clearly I handled this in a way that only made you more mad, which is exactly what I didn't want to happen. For that I apologize. I will ask to have our technical team take down the video taken right away, as well as your blog. I will have our creative contract sent to you first thing Monday morning.
Peter
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Comments (22) |
To all Genius Rocket Users,
Please be careful and look out for yourselves. Genius Rocket has used fine print in their contract to use my work on their homepage to attract new clients and build their business. They never asked my permission, paid me for this work or even gave me credit. They can easily do the same thing to you. You have all signed the same contract that I signed.
Below is an email from Mark Walsh CEO of Genius Rocket. At the very beginning of this email he points out that he owns my work in perpetuity (forever) and has the right to use it to attract new clients and market his business. He points to this as the reason that I have no right to expect to be paid for my work. If this isn't evil I'm not sure what is.
Please don't let Genius Rocket take advantage of your hard work like they did with me.
_____________________
Ben: I could spend a lot of time showing you how we have the legal, perpetual non-exclusive right to use what you submitted for the SXSW competition for our own uses.
But, I have a feeling that will not satisfy you or make you less upset. I am not emailing you to argue over that, and, please understand that I am not saying your emotions are not valid… I am not. It is an interesting “brave new world” out there in crowdsourcing. I think GeniusRocket is actually one of, if not THE most respectful creative crowdsourcing companies out there, since we always pay a winner, and allow the clients to contact and interact directly with our creative collaborators. As far as we know, no one else does that.
But, first, let’s figure out a way to try make you comfortable with what is going on I have read the extensive back and forth emails between you and Fred and Peter Lamotte. It seems like you have become increasingly upset as my colleagues explained our structure, and offered ways to make your identity more prominent and to satisfy you. I am convinced that email makes situations like this always escalate and get out of hand versus person to person conversation, but I understand you do not want to have a phone call.
I also sense from what you have written that each time someone from my company emails you, you have gotten more and more angry at us. You now have created a website to air your emotions and are inviting our members to hear your story. Obviously, I disagree with your actions… but it does seem to me that each email you write you seem to be more and more convinced that we are making money off you and not paying you.
---
Ben, I fundamentally disagree with that. But, I am convinced that we are never going to change each other’s opinions. I am not challenging you, just telling you what I think.
But, I also am trying to get to the root of this. What, specifically, do you want me to do?
I look forward to your response.
Mark Walsh, ceo http://geniusrocket.com/ direct office: 301 760 3400
P.S. Read about us in the New York Times.
1 year ago
Peter I have told you many times. The professional way to resolve this is simple.
1. To pay the people who's work you are using to promote Genius Rocket and attract new clients.
Maybe this works out to $100 - $500 for each person based on how you are using their work? This seems perfectly fair to me.
After all Genius Rocket works on the concept that if the client selects your work you deserve to be paid. Shouldn't that apply to Genius Rocket itself?
1 year ago
Ben, can you read this again please ?
" Ben Powell, is an incredibly talented filmmaker from New York who much to our pleasure decided to participate in the SXSW RFB earlier this year. "
I told you that everyone here has to read the terms of service before taking part in this process. I think that, we cannot ask Genius Rocket Team to be responsible (in paying us on time and searching new clients or increasing payments), and on the other hand have a lack of responsibility ourselves.
As you can read above, you seem to be a great and talented designer and filmmaker. Do you know that when people are really talentuous (lets take for instance sportsmans such as Zinedine Zidane, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan or even Steven Spielberg...), do you think that life was/is easy for them ? Please, be reasonable and constructive.
You are claiming for 250$ whereas you are a talented filmmaker. Please, offer to the whole world, this opportunity to see how great the job that you make is (even for one time it's free) and please forget this bad adventure.
I think that Genius take here its responsibility and show its professionalism, by not avoiding your public request and complain and opening this public blog, this is really fair.
And they offer you here, the possibility to find a diplomatic solution. Please take it into account, which means that we can have some democracy here (remember, I first support you before I understand what it was about).
Now, you better calm down and focus your brains to the next works you'll make here, or somewhere else.
I've been also confronted to copyright problems because here in France an agency use my designs while they don't ask me for, or a graphic designer in another website contest who win a great paid contest with one of my designs (you know how copyright its difficult to put, we can't put copyright to each creation we make).
This is not really the case here because you didn't win the contest and your job remain to Genius property according to the Terms of Service (everyone should know that even me).
I just forget these bad adventures and focus to what life will bring to me, further.
Don't loose your chance to impress us again Ben, and please calm down. I'm sure that Genius will always care about our claims or queries.
Will all my friendship and support, Ben. And sorry again for my poor english.
Vitaminz ;)
1 year ago
Vitaminz the reason that this issue is important is because I don't want anyone to take advantage of our work.
People have taken advantage of your hard work also. So you understand where I'm coming from.
Tomorrow I will create new work and I will be paid fairly for that work. I don't want Genius Rocket to ever again take advantage of anyone else. This is why I have decided to stand up for myself. We all deserve to be treated fairly.
I don't feel that the Genius Rocket Terms of Service treat anyone fairly. So I have to stand up against that. If Genius Rocket uses our work to build their business we deserve to be paid for our work.
1 year ago
I forgot to post my response to Mark's email. Hopefully that will help clarify my position.
_________________________________
Mark,
My website (geniusrocketisevil.com) pretty much just tells my story there isn't much emotion. You used my animation on your homepage to attract new customers and build your business. You didn't ask my permission, pay me for my hard work or even give me credit. That's pretty clear.
Just because you are allowed to exploit my work because of the fine print in your contract doesn't make it right. If my work is of value to you in building your business I deserve to be paid for my hard work. You can point to your contract all you want, but that doesn't
change anything. That doesn't justify what you did.
Since I have started telling my story I have heard from a few members of your community who completely agree with me. Here's a comment that just appeared on my site from one of your community members.
"You must ask at least the award of the RFB. I go with you."
D.A. Laguna
I asked D.A. to email Peter directly so hopefully you will hear his viewpoint directly from him. I doubt heavily there are many, if any members of your community who would disagree with me. In fact some other people demanded that this issue be addressed, but their comments were deleted as soon as they appeared. Clearly you want to try to cover this up and pretend it never happened. I guess you must realize that your community doesn't agree with your actions.
Mark, the ethical thing to do is to pay people if they help you build your business. Anyone in that video who wasn't paid for their work deserves to be paid. Ask any other member of your community and my guess is they will tell you the same thing.
1 year ago
Ok, Ben let me propose you some arrangement.
All here, we are graphic designers. I personnally want to offer you 50$ of the next logo I will send here. (If I have some chance). What is important for me is to help you and to help genius as well, even if I do make logos to live.
I suggest that each next designer who will win a contest here, offer 50$ to Ben, till we reach 250$. Are you agree with this amount ? Are Genius Team members agree with this suggestion ?
You know, this is funny in some way. I imagine this community as a real one (despite the economic and business strategies behind this project that I respect). And I want to tell to my children one day about this funny story when I made logos in 25 years old to survive, and I offered 50$ to a guy in the s*** ! (sorry Ben)
If other designers here want to help our friend Ben, and also support Genius, please join with me and offer 50$ of your next paid till we reach 250$.
Maybe somebody will tell that I'm crazy, but I am certainly crazy if I'm a real designer ;)
So everyone is welcomed to support this little idea that I raised.
Cheers.
Vitaminz (I will create a blog for this issue if both part Genius Team and Ben support this idea).
1 year ago
Vitaminz that's way too generous of you. I'm not interested in taking money from members of Genius Rocket. As it is, you barely get paid enough for your logos. There's no reason for you to pay me. Peter LaMotte and Mark Walsh are the people who are responsible for this not you.
Also if I ever do receive anything for my work whether $2 or $200 it will all be going to charity. My wife is a big fan of animals so I will be giving everything to Animal Haven a shelter for animals here in NYC.
http://www.animalhavenshelter.org/
1 year ago
Ok, I understand. So good luck Ben.
Vitaminz
1 year ago
Hi, all... This is a slippery slope, because, by design, the framework of any crowdsourcing platform is that of creators doing spec work, and thus, many of us will not have our work chosen by the client(s) for whom we submit.
And that is why there are contracts, terms of use, fine print, etc. They are in place not only to protect the interests of the creators, but the companies and clients we work with, as well.
We, as professional creators doing freelance business, must be cautious in how we proceed in such an environment. I, myself, have opted out of more than one project (with GR and with other companies) because I didn't feel that the fine print (which I read carefully) adequately protected my creative interests.
While I do not agree with clients retaining the rights to use submissions not selected, I certainly see no problem with GR showcasing the work of its contributors. It shows the versatility and depth of talent in the community we choose to do business among.
There are many great opportunities available to us through a company like GeniusRocket. Amateurs and newcomers to their fields have the chance to get their work before Brands they otherwise wouldn't have the chance to... And professionals can reap the benefits of added income, and exposure to their careers.
However, as professionals in our chosen field(s), we must always act professionally if we are to promote such a community and help it flourish. We must accept reward with humility and professionalism, and we must accept rejection with sportsmanship and maturity. To act otherwise devalues us as individual creators, and as a community.
1 year ago
I wrote an e-mail to GeniusRocket regarding the winning logo for Lake Windcrest Golf Club but no one responded to my e-mail. I was curious as to why the logo didn't appear among the other submissions. Soon after, out of the blue, 3 logo concepts from the same designer, appeared, one after the other, among the submissions. How could I have missed them?....specially since I actually noticed Heather Scott's earlier submission that shares a very similar color pattern and rectangular shape?
So, personally, when someone doesn't reply to a simple question makes me wonder why? This was a fair question and should have had a simple explanation. But I got no answer from GeniusRocket.
1 year ago
We have responded to Luisiana through the direct messaging system. I explained that we unfortunately never received her email and the submission was submitted on Jul 30th. I wanted to leave this comment area open to the important topic that it was originally intended for.
1 year ago
Just another example of a crowd sourcing site taking the piss out of its users.
Spec work is bad, just don't do it. It devalues our industry.
Well done Ben for chasing this up so hard, these people need to be made to feel responsible for there actions.
1 year ago
Vitaminz you are crazy haha..., We are supporting GR since we became members and when we upload designs. If GR used Ben's work they have to pay him, and I think this is not about money this is about respect.
1 year ago
Great site...keep up the good work.
1 year ago
Just discovered this blog and the discussion and I feel I should write a few lines.
I'm a GR creator from day one, submitted to many RFB's and won some. I remember also being featured on the front page with my work that didn't get selected by the client in the end. That felt kinda strange.
I also remember everything that went wrong here. Worst comunication ever. Not kept promisses. Late (very, very late) payments. I wasn't silent about it. I named the bad things, argued quite a bit with the folks at GR and also denied a request by GR to help them marketing the project by doing an interview - as a protest against the fact that with the relaunch of the site I lost all my private mails and contacts without prewarning. Still makes me angry.
So, aside from the GR specific trouble - is crowdsourcing cheap labour? Yes. Are the contracts you sign to enter contests on crowdsourcing sites unfair to the creators? Yes. Is it frustrating doing good stuff and not beeing honoured for it? Yes.
Is all that a reason not to grab the chances offered here? No.
It's rather the opposite. It's the chance not only to work for brands you never would get contact to. It's a chance to show that you are a pro. The more people get involved in this industry, the more people know the odds and the limitations of producing for crowdsourcing sites. If you can do great stuff under those circumstances, then there are no limits for you.
So, Ben, I know exactly how you feel. I see all your valid points. But I must say, you are not acting like a pro when you let your ego destroy your chances. We are not treated as creative individuals here, but as a creative mass. We are being used by GR. But we have in return the chance to use GR for our aims. This here is not about love, it's about busines. And GR is one of the coolest busines partners around. I'm sorry for you, Ben that you didn't realise that. But I'm glad for me beacause it means one talented competitor less to worry about...
11 months, 3 weeks ago
I am a new creator to this site. First, I think its a great idea. If people are honest and pay for the work according to legal precedent I see no problem with using someone's submission to promote the site as long as the creator retains credit and copyright to the product. Am I correct in this?
One point in the Terms does trouble me a little. Its where a creator releases all copyright in any media. This has been a sticking point for artists and I'm not sure you would have a legal standing here (meaning GeniusRocket or the company who buys the product). An artist, Frederick Hart, sued and won a case involving his sculpture for a group of figures at the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial. A photograph of the figure group was made into postcards and sold without his permission. He was paid for the sculpture, not the postcards. He sued and the courts awarded him the verdict. This is now legal precedent. You might want to stipulate in the client's description all media for which the product will be used. Anything beyond that could be default and the client could be held in breach of contract regardless of what the Terms are to GeniusRocket.
This is important for all creators. A design purporting to be for a local cleaning company could be used for a major Hollywood movie. Or used to sell tens of thousands of t-shirts and the designer would receive no benefit. Its important that the artist understand what media the image is being used for and control any reuse in another media. The artist has to be paid for the media he designs for and not lose compensation or credit because its used in another one.
If the entity who buys the design had been paying the creator by the hour that would be a whole different story. They would own everything he made while on their dime. We here, on the other hand, are independent contractors no different to the sculptor I mentioned. If I am wrong please correct me.
If I found a design that I sold to a website or a company's logo being used in a media not stated in the description and what I thought it was for, or what a reasonable person would not expect it to be used in, I may take legal action.
I think GeniusRocket should reword the Terms to reflect this.
11 months, 3 weeks ago
Also, is it my understanding that GeniusRocket owns (i.e. has copyright) on whatever I submit?
11 months, 3 weeks ago
First, an update from our CEO is on the way addressing what we have done to make sure the “Ben” situation never happens again. Our goal is to learn from our mistakes, and I assure you that we learned A LOT from this one.
But I wanted to post a quick comment to Kino and others. Kino, thank you for the feedback and for the comments. I was not part of GeniusRocket management team when you had your problems, but since I have started dealing with daily operations I have made it my goal to make the site more timely with response, selection, and payment. We have given clients deadlines in which they have to select a submissions, and we have set deadlines for ourselves by which to pay creators. If these deadlines can’t be met an update to the community is required prior to the end of the set time. On day-one of coming into this job I made it mandatory that clients pay ahead of time. This guarantees that 100% of selections are awarded. There are of course lots of ways that we are trying to improve the creator experience on the site and we will announcement them as they take place.
idealart, No GeniusRocket does not own the content. Our TOS provide a non-exclusive right to display and use the content. This doesn’t mean we can or would sell it. We simply need to have the ability to show your work so that future clients can look at your portfolio or past projects and see what has been submitted. They cannot use it because unless you are selected and paid the ownership stays with you.
11 months, 2 weeks ago
Maybe it's just me, but fine print is still print, it's not invisible and if you had read the contract and saw that a situation like this was a possibility you really have no one to blame but yourself.
Now, this is not to say that I completely agree with the contract. I mean, I hate almost every policy my bank has, but that's all I can do, hate it. I signed a contract and agreed to certain terms and those terms are what I must abide by if I want to continue with the service.
All that can be done at this point is to ask Genius Rocket to reevaluate their terms because of the outcome of a certain situation, but there is no legitimate claim to compensation when you have signed something that you presumably read.
11 months, 2 weeks ago
um is it legal to share private emails, now genius rocket has started a new battle with ben over the privacy of their communication, i thonk ben might retaliate to this,,,,,ill be watching
11 months, 2 weeks ago
Erik, just going back over old comments, but in short unless otherwise noted in an email, yes it can be shared. It its held by the same laws similar to a letter in the mail. Of course as you would see from a lawyer or doctor, if the email contains a confidentiality clause then no you can't publish that information. But that is a great question.
9 months ago
I've always operated under this premise: Try as they will, they can't steal my next idea.
If you don't like it, get out.
If you do, do more.
Thanks, GR, for the opportunity.
6 months, 1 week ago